Kim Doyal: The WP Chick
In this episode, my guest is Kim Doyal, The WP Chick. She is well known in the WordPress community and runs both the WP Chick podcast and is co-host of the Hustlefree Podcast. We spent a lot of time talking about podcasting, consistency of message and how to share information that is of incredible value to your audience. Listen to the podcast to find out the details.
Listen to the Podcast
Some of the highlights of this episode include:
- I'm a firm believer in giving value and creating, but it's a business. You have to be able to sell.
- The sooner you can sell, the better, but I you have to establish a relationship first.
- Building your subscriber list is one of the most important things you can do for your business.
- Whatever form your content is, you need to show up in a genuine way and show up consistently to deliver value.
- Getting connected to your audience is critical to establishing a relationship and to get them listening to your message.
- Podcasting is a great way to connect with your audience and getting guests on the podcast means you get to share someone elses wisdom and experience!
The Buzz - Our Innovation Round
Here are Kim's answers to the questions of our Innovation round. Watch the interview to get the full scoop.
- #1 thing to be more innovative – Master the fundamentals!
- Best thing for new ideas – Podcast! As well as connection AND doing (writing).
- Favourite tool for innovation – Coschedule.
- Keep project / client on track – Email, I use MixMax, also get payment.
- Differentiate – As Dr Seuss said "No one is youer than you!".
To Be a Leader
Show up! "Fake it till you make it" is arse-backwards! Share what works and what doesn't!
Kim suggested I interview Carrie Dils who is well known in the WordPress world and hosts Officehours.fm, on a future InnovaBuzz podcast. So, Carrie keep an eye on your inbox, for an invitation from me to the InnovaBuzz podcast, courtesy of Kim Doyal.
- The WP Chick Website
- The Hustle Free Podcast
- The Freedom Papers Podcast
- Kim's Podcast with Dustin Stout
- Rambox App
- Franz App
- TED Talk - Dr Brené Brown: The Power of Vulnerability
Click to Read...
Hi, I'm Jürgen Strauss from Innovabiz. Welcome to Episode No 52 of the InnovaBuzz Podcast - designed to help smart businesses with an interest in innovation become even more innovative.
In this episode, my guest is Kim Doyal, The WordPress Chick. Of course, Kim is well known in the WordPress community as someone who is a prolific content producer, she runs courses, workshops, webinars and hosts two podcasts, The WordPress Chick Podcast and the Hustle Free Podcast.
We talked on this episode about consistency of message and how to share information that is of incredible value to your audience, and we talked a lot about podcasting. This is another fascinating and high energy interview with a lot of fabulous content. So, without further ado, let’s fly into the Hive and get the Buzz from Kim Doyal.
Jürgen: Hi, I'm Jürgen Strauss from Innovabiz and I’m really honored to have with me today on this episode of the InnovaBuzz podcast all the way from the beautiful Bay Area of San Francisco, U.S.A., Kim Doyal, the WordPress Chick. Welcome Kim. It’s a privilege to have you on the InnovaBuzz podcast, I think it’s long overdue!
Kim: Thanks for having me Jürgen. I’m excited and honored to be here. This is going to be fun.
Jürgen: It should be fun. For those of you who are in the WordPress space, you would know Kim very well. She’s not only an expert in all things WordPress. She’s a podcaster. She runs training workshops, online courses, webinars and she describes herself as information junkie.
Kim: Yes I do [laugh]. I spent 10 years in the book industry at the end of high school and worked my way up. I’m an avid reader. I love learning stuff. I’m definitely an information junkie but hopefully not at the detriment of applying or implementing things. [laugh]
Jürgen: Yeah [laugh]. That’s a risk isn’t it? Shiny object syndrome?
Kim: Yeah. It is and it’s funny. I don’t want to go two side ways. Earlier, it was probably close to a year ago now, I hired a Facebook Ad agency. We were doing podcasting done for you services. What was fascinating about working with them is, it was just like a light bulb that went off. All of a sudden I’ve gone back to the fundamentals and working with this Ad agency, I’ve gotten back to core direct response marketing principles, email marketing and copywriting. When you start implementing that stuff, the shiny object syndrome isn’t as appealing. [laugh]
Jürgen: [chuckles] Yeah. You talked about being a lifelong learner. When you were a young child what did you want to be when you grew up?
Kim: First I want to be a rockstar. I grew up playing piano. I played for about 10 years.
I was in the children’s choir and all that stuff but truthfully, I thought I would go into graphic design so it’s kind of fun how it just came full circle. At one point in college, I was a speech major. Shifting from design, I took some design classes in college. I love drawing and art too much to go into a competitive space. I didn’t have the confidence and I didn’t want to be shut down or criticized. I was a speech major for a while. I really wanted to do motivational speaking so it’all kind of full circle with what I do with podcasting, web and content. I’m still a huge design fan. I would not say I am a designer. But I did want to do that. So it’s kind of fun that it’s just a different platform.
Jürgen: Yeah that’s right. I was just going to say that you’re a rockstar now in the podcast area and of course in the WordPress industry.
Kim: [laugh] Thanks. I don’t know if I would say that but…[laugh]
Jürgen: [laugh] You are essentially publishing blogs everyday because I seem to get an email in my inbox everyday with a blogpost from you. Tell us a little bit about how you manage to have the energy and the creativity to generate so much content.
Kim: It’s hard when you’re first starting out. What happened was I found… (I should get a commision every time I mention his name), this guy Ben Settle. It’s just bensettle.com. He is just this prolific email guy. I probably subscribed for his email for a good year before I became a customer. I subscribed to his monthly email players and it’s a $97 dollar print publication that comes in the mail, which I loved.
I really found the method because it's more of a story and it's not always a link to my content. Sometimes it's an affiliate link. Sometimes it's a service or product, which I'm sort of retooling my brand so eventually it'll be more links to my own products and services. I just wanted to get good at the copy in the content piece of it. I've always enjoyed writing content but in the WordPress space, I sort of fell into this, ‘How to do this and how to do that,’ which you then have to be careful because you can build a list of freebie seekers.
I'm a firm believer in giving value and creating, but it's a business. You have to be able to sell and I really got my own way for a long time. Everything is content to me. The email I sent out today was because I got an email from Coach Purses, right?
Jürgen: Yeah I read that and that's fascinating - the way you took that experience and translated into something. Tell us more about the Coach story.
Kim: It's practice like anything else - that everything to me is a story for content.
So I subscribe to Coach purses’ website. I bought their bags in the past. I'm not a huge purse person totally but anyway so I've been seeing what they're doing lately and everytime I see these purses I'm like, ‘These are ridiculous!’ [laugh]
Kim: They're bizarre looking. I'm not a big fashion person but [I like] the clean simple nice bags. A few weeks ago, someone had sent me a picture of a Coach bag with literally a Pac-Man on it and I was like - ‘Who?-’ And these are like $500 dollar bags. I'm like, ‘Is somebody really buying this?’
Today, when I saw the dinosaurs, [I was like] ‘Are you going to spend $500- $600 dollars on a bag with a dinosaur on it?’ [laugh]
Jürgen: You get a wooden attachment, right? [laugh]
Kim: Yeah you get this wooden skeletal dinosaur with it! I clicked through because it was funny when I was trying to find the image of the bag.
Their website is not conducive or their search is awful but when I found the dinosaur
stuff I went to the page. I'm like ‘Why are they selling dinosaur charms?’ Seriously! Or sweaters with dinosaurs. It was the strangest thing to me and so I tied that in with the fact that I have gotten clear as I've done more content and I can tell you some of the results I've gotten from the e-mails and the content. But as I've done more of this, I've gotten much more clear on my messaging and so when I go to launch the brand the tagline is a place where WordPress and marketing collide.
Because that's really my happy place. I like being on the show. I'm not going to show somebody how to code a website. I'm not going to show them. I'm not ever going to offer codes snippets that are downloadable.I don't know that stuff. When I got clear on that, everything just kind of started to fall into place. So it was simply sharing the story of knowing who you’re serving. There's all these exercises and ways that you can get [as you] dial down your target audience in your avatar [and] in your branding.
For me, what's really worked is - is just applying it, writing, sharing, engaging and just showing up and doing the work. As opposed to there's so much planning and strategizing, so each time I write, I get closer and closer and I can knock those emails and posts out quickly.
Jürgen: Yeah you touched on a lot of really interesting things there and I think the core of the whole thing is knowing your audience, knowing who you’re talking to, knowing who is going to be interested in what you have to say and what you have to offer. That Coach example was a really good one. I don’t know if the ideal Coach handbag and purse purchaser is interested in Pac-Man or dinosaurs but it certainly sounds like they may not have tested that. The idea of understanding your audience, building that Avatar but then like you said, taking actions on the back of that, because a lot of people do that exercise and it's a bit like a business plan that’s done once and ends up in the drawer and forgotten.
Kim: Yeah. I've done all this quote unquote work. You know I interviewed on
my show a week ago, Dustin Stout who is a great prolific social media guy and he is
one of the founders of Warfare Plugins for their social warfare sharing plugin.
I love what Dustin said about when he writes because he said, ‘It's a lot easier to write to one person,’ so if you're going to do the avatar thing, l would say that my audience is sort of where I was in my business a few years ago. And male, female, 6 to 1, because my audience is almost split down the middle but you go through that.
I write my own voice. I write the way I talk. I just write like that and it works. The more
I show up as myself the better the content works.
Jürgen: Yeah and that's important as well because when people meet you
or speak with you, it's all congruent with the experience they've had right from the
beginning. Everything is lined up and if they don't like that, they’re probably not
going to work with you anyway. They never would have worked with you. But if there's an incongruence somewhere then the message is diluted or it just doesn't work.
Kim: Yeah. I did this movie which you can't find it. It's not for sale but it was called Women in Business. I was in the movie and I had fourteen other women.
Some were 7 figure earners. They’re all online marketers and I can't begin to tell
you how odd it was to meet some of these people in person who did not match their brand.
Their brand came across as have been some of us like, ‘Oh I don't think I like it too much.’ [laugh]
Kim: Or that maybe the persona, the brand online was very - I don't want to say this. I get super super polished and at the same time, I love her every day personality. I wish this is who you were right? But that wasn’t her audience and we all have different sides to us so I totally get that. I just can't live like this. I don't have the energy to be somebody else online. [chuckles]
Jürgen: Well, in some ways. It's a little bit like being in the corporate world isn't it?
There's a lot of things that we talk about being entrepreneurs and the freedom that gives us in not being locked into the corporate world but I think there is some of that there as well. We have to kind of fit in with whatever the corporate identity is. And even if you know we're in the job that we love, there is that corporate identity and our personalities might be quite different.
Kim:Yeah and I think I use the term all the time - old school marketers sort of. Before social media got really big, we had a lot of people that were doing Internet
Marketing and it was enough about me. It was all about them all the time and I think with social media, there's a level of distrust that happens now.
I have to tell you probably of those fourteen people, there's only one that I even follow online anymore. Everybody else I unsubscribed. I don't follow them socially because if I see somebody posting on social media and all they do is talk about themselves and [say] ‘Look at me! Look at me! And look at me!’ as opposed to it because to me, and obviously this is my interpretation, it sort of comes across that there's this fear of competition as opposed to here’s something of value that's going to serve my audience.
If they want to hire that person so to me it’s great. It's a better fit and you move on. I think there's that sort of old school mentality and I'm also not of the mindset of moving to the free model where everything should be free either, you get to find your happy place. But I just I don't think business is done that way anymore.
Jürgen: Yeah the I guess there’s a certain insecurity that comes with that isn’t there?
Kim: Yeah it comes across like, ‘Really? Are you the only person that has something to help with that?
Jürgen: Yeah. I could go into politics too but I might steer away.
Kim: [laugh] Especially with what we're going through. Let's not go down that road.[laugh]
Jürgen: [laugh] Why don’t we come back to something you said earlier? You just touched on it then as well around the balance between free information and turning that into a business because there is, as you say, giving value and giving enormous value without any expectation is probably one of the best marketing tactics right now. But how do you find the balance between we then transition that into paid services or paid products?
Kim: Well, the first thing you know is consistency with however you're going to do it.
I know Gary Vaynerchuk [who talked about] “Jab-jab-jab right hook.” I've heard someone else say “Free-free-free-fee.” The sooner you can sell, the better to be honest with you but I think you have to establish a relationship. Here's an example. It’s this sort of email marketing I’m doing. The goal is a daily e-mail…. I've gotten more responses doing this and people saying, ‘I don't normally read this but I love this,’ [talking about] sharing my content all that good stuff.
I've got website clients... I don't even have a portfolio on my site anymore. But...I do a lot of affiliate marketing. It's the stuff that I use and I create content around so I have no problem creating an epic post so to speak with four videos and I did this for the Thrive content builder. I think it's a great alternative for landing pages and funnels and stuff. I did this new post. I did four videos and I did a couple content upgrades where they could download a PDF within the post.
I have no problem sending that out and people know I'm using it. I'm showing them how to use that [if they] want to buy through my link. Your goal is always of value and you know that your product or service is going to solve a problem for somebody… but you have to do it sooner rather than later. Because I felt I had to retrain an audience of people who were used to just getting free stuff from me. I don't know if I answered
your question but I would do it sooner rather than later.
Jürgen: Yeah. That's a really good answer. The challenge I think for a lot of people, and I often find myself in this situation, is that you wonder [whether] that audience that expects everything for free is the right audience. It comes back a little bit to really
understanding your audience to start with but then at the same time…. don't expect everything for free so that the idea of the marketing ‘free-free-free-fee’ and concept may not work as well.
Kim: But you know it's funny because I love using offline examples because it makes people look ridiculous when it comes to online. I don't know where the idea of entitlement come from online or that everything's supposed to happen immediately…
I use the example of my gym membership. If I don't go in there, they're not going to give me a free month because I didn't use it…People almost get irritated that you’re selling something in an email and I don't get a lot of [them] anymore because I may take in a very strong stance but here's an example, I joke around if I go to the grocery store. We're coming up on Halloween in the States. If I walk in and there's a table of
Halloween cookies, I'm not going to get pissed off because the first thing I see are cookies on sale, nor do I get offended when they're trying to upsell me at the registers with gum and candy and magazines. It's like, “It's business right?”
We don't have this personal affront when it's offline. It's the strangest thing to me. I'm like, ‘This is a business. I'm not interested.I love what I do but I
have to pay bills I've got.’ It's kind of funny when people get so offended. I've always been one of those people [who say], ‘If you don't like the song, turn the channel. If you don't like the show don't watch it.’
…..Talking about [the] audience, it’s okay to polarize people. I love this from Erica Napoletano. She said, ‘Love me. Hate me. But don't be indifferent.’
Jürgen: Yeah that's good. It's good to have an opinion because people [either] identify with you or they don't and that's okay.. That generates a discussion.
Kim: Yeah. It's a start. You can tell I get excited about this stuff and it's because I
had used another line and again, Ben Settle, calls out the trolls or snowflakes as he calls them all the time and it's hysterical because you know he's still doing his thing. Serving people and his business is simple but I had to use the term when I did that Thrive post. It took me a few weeks to finish it because I accidently rendered my videos
in super crazy Blu-ray quality. I was like, ‘Why is this taking an entire day to render anyway? It was one of those and I was like, ‘Okay. This isn't working.’ So it took me a
few weeks to get this thing finished because I did this downloadable PDF and all this
I think my street name was tenacious D. and I didn't know the actor Jack Black’s band is
called Tenacious D. I had no idea. And I was using it because I was being tenacious. I was just being funny. It just sounded good. Somebody responded to me and said, ‘You
could at least come up with your own or can't you come up with your own name and I said, ‘What?’ I unsubscribed to her immediately. Then the next day I said, well someone got snarky and I had all these people laughing about [it]. It's okay to polarize...
Jürgen: Yeah that’s right. And what often surprises me is that people think we’re talking
about expectation of free or publishing or whatever that’s online. People think marketing and sales online are different. It's no different than in the physical world. It's about building a relationship with the right people who need your product or service. It's just that online, the mechanism, how you build that relationship, is different.
Kim: It is. Another example of this again is this is email content but a friend of mine was in a private Facebook group and she was sharing with me that somebody complained in the group. Mind you the Facebook group was for people who had purchased a course on Webinars.
And so this person kind of did this little rant in this group and said, ‘Here are some
pain points for your next sales letter to all the marketers. I'm tired of purchasing extra software. I'm tired of doing this. I'm tired.” Her frustration level was very apparent and I got it. I’ve been there. She said, ‘I'm tired of working all day long and having nothing to show for it or offer any. After ten weeks and I thought we’re offline.’ Would you expect in ten weeks to have a profitable business, right?
Mind you there's a lot of ways that you could make a good money quickly online but you have to either have money or time, one of the two, and you got to do your due diligence. But it was just so on one hand, I saw her frustration on the other hand I thought.
Jürgen: That’s right. People join [some of these programs] and think or believe that it’s a little bit like the free discussion we're having earlier, isn't it? They believe that if they're
given a system and they’re shown step by step how to do something that that's all that's required but [they] tend to forget that they've actually got to do the work from there.
Kim: Well, yeah. Take the example of a webinar course. You're going to have to work a lot harder to sell a webinar, to sell a high ticket or a course that doesn't have a high ticket yet but something from a webinar platform, if you don't have an audience,
if you don't have a list, if you don't communicate regularly, [and] if you haven’t
established trust and built up your business.
It’s like, ‘Which came first? The chicken or the egg?” kind of thing but people get so enamored. Ben Settle calls it flake book. He's really funny. [It’s] about the latest guru doing this course or that course. Well all of those things are great but you have to have the foundation and so for me I joke that I'm always a slow learner. I mean I've been creating content consistently this year for sure but I have I've always stuck with the brand when I came up with the WordPress Chick, I didn't know what I was doing, I found the platform and I knew it was a good name and I just stuck with it but the thing is it's really tough because here's a great example Jürgen, you hear people all the time, ‘Build your list. Build your list. Build your list.’ And people get tired of that or they don't want to seem smarmy or pushy. Go to any of Neil Patel sites and you will get hit with four ways to opt in on one page or post. He is not shy about it. Clearly it works.
Jürgen: Definitely not. No. Yeah, yeah it's frustrating.
Kim: And it works… Yeah it’s frustrating. We'll see what happens when a Google slaps down in January and yeah I'm like ‘Really do I have to register for this webinar again?’
Jürgen: Yeah. I mean, I find it frustrating when you have to revisit the pop-up over and over. Neil is just one example, he has great stuff, so I love going to his sites.
Kim: Yeah. It's brilliant.
Jürgen: It's because I love reading his stuff and I'm already subscribed to several of these lists so I find it frustrating. [I say], “Hey I came here to read your stuff. Stop putting these pop-ups up!’
Jürgen: [I say to] a lot of people I speak to, ‘Look. I hate those pop up sites so I don't want to have them on my site’ and they say ‘Well, [we] hate them too.’ But here's the thing - they really work. There's nothing as effective as they are.
Kim: No there isn't. It's interesting with Google doing this slap coming in January. And the fact that they're going towards this mobile first experience and so you think, ‘Okay, well how can I stay?’ Which is why I love content upgrades. I like creating content. But as long as you know it. There's a lot of ways that you can get around that and so
here's a question for you Jurgen, you see a very current design trend is the big hero image across the top and I like that on the home page. But then the style tends to be pulled through so that the featured images maybe the entire full with the page. It's tough because while I like the way it looks I'm thinking that is really valuable real estate.
Jürgen: Exactly. Yeah
Kim: I read a lot of Neil’s stuff. He had done this experiment, a hundred thousand dollar a month experiment, to get a site to one hundred thousand dollars a month and the site is nutritionsecrets.com. If you got there, they are using lead quizzes to generate leads but there at the top of every page, it's in the navigation, ‘Take the diet quiz’ and then instead of a hero image at the top of every page, it’s super clean. It's a very clean and simple site. [If you want to] find out your diet personality, take the quiz. So I thought I'm going to do that. I prefer that and then still on the same page down in the sidebar is the ‘take the quiz.’ And it doesn't look obnoxious and it's clean. I thought you have to be careful. If your objective is to grow a business and I know that I'm creating content and doing the right things with that stuff so I don't mind like if you want more. I want to grow my list. You have to really get the fundamentals down and there's so much information and it’s like the shiny object syndrome. It's like an Instagram course or Facebook ads…
Jürgen: That's a really good point... The risk to the web page is anything that comes up and particularly when you think about going mobile first… You bring it up on mobile and that's all we see and I was reading something the other day that. The conventional wisdom in the way of industry is that people have an attention span of about three to five seconds.
Jürgen: I was reading something the other day that says [about these] scientific evidence and statistics that I was quoting. [It says] that our attention span on average has now reduced to two seconds.
Kim: Holy Moly!
Jürgen: [chuckle] So imagine bringing something up on the mobile phone always is the hero image now two seconds isn't enough time to scroll down and find some useful information. So it's interesting isn't it?
Kim: Yeah and that really clicked. The lead magnet piece of it in terms of the email or whatever, it's like they get that that should be within the hero image on the home-page but if you're creating content you're not sending people to your home page all the time you know I mean?
Jürgen: Hmmnn.. So we've just built a website for a local landscaping business and that it's important you mentioned this. Also it's important to know what's the objective that you want to achieve so in this case we decided the objective in the first case is to get people to actually ring them or request a quote or give them contact details so they can come around and quote for a job. So on the top of every page, we do have a background image on the website so that it does look a little bit like a hero image but over the top of that background image are two buttons one is a call us and the other a request a quote and it's a call to action and that’s on the top of every page and if you bring it up on mobile the hero image centrally vanishes and you've just got those buttons. So it's just a case of pressing the button and it goes straight through to a phone call.
Kim:Yeah… I don't do anything local because I always felt there is so much education required. I mean I've done it for the last local site. I was a barter for a local spa that I know the owner and I was like ‘Yeah. I'll take massage for a year. This is great.
Jürgen:It is this personal connection as well.
Kim:You know because a lot of times it was like it's not just just putting up a website.
Actually I should take that back as I'm working on a Microbrewery site too.
Jürgen: Hmnnn.. Free beer![laugh]
Kim:Yeah! [laugh] The guy that has the money not the Brewers and stuff but the kind of the guy who's funding it literally said, ‘Well I don't see the point of the website. Why can't we just use Facebook?’ and I was like ‘Well unless your name is Mark, I'm pretty sure you own nothing on Facebook.’
Kim:That’s the whole point of it. Fortunately, they've got someone else that brought me in and had a marketing background about stuff…
Kim:To each his own you know
Jürgen: Yeah that's right. But again as I said it's a personal connection. And they're actually good. They basically let me do what I think is right...
Kim: Yeah and I should clarify that they spotted the same thing because they were getting complaints [and] because there were gift certificates and people couldn't buy gifts certificates to the website. So the month that we took the site live their gift certificate sales went up seventy six percent.
Kim: So you know it works.
Jürgen:Those work. So you've talked to quite a bit about growing your list. The segway is I'm interested how you grew your podcasting audience whether you use your list to do that or not but let's take a step back from that and tell us about how you got into podcasting in the first place.
Kim: Yeah. I launched my podcast about three and a half years ago. Literally Jürgen, I just wanted to have more fun in my business. I was a big Pat Flynn listener and I loved podcasting and my days in the book industry. This is totally going to date me. But I did the whole cassette tapes in the car like I've always been - I like audio. I'm not totally obnoxious person- shopping that has a headset on all the time. Just don’t even bother me, because I'm listening to them. [laugh]
Here's the funny thing [that] I posted. I had this ranty Skype conversation with a friend. And so I copy and pasted the Skype conversation into a blogpost and then I created this manifesto. It was like, ‘If it’s not fun. I’m not doing it.’ I made a video The Whole Nine Yards.. When I started my business I thought I was going to be this millionaire information marketer. I would just write an ebook and become a millionaire. It doesn't work that way. I kind of fell into WordPress so for podcasting I just wanted to have fun and I'm just going to be myself. I need to show up in a genuine way and that's it. I didn't have a launch plan [and] a strategy. I knew it was creating content and I'll tell you within the first three or four months iTunes became one of my top three traffic sources and my site had been online for five years at the time so that tells you a lot.
All of a sudden, I've gotten website clients, podcast clients, coaching the relationships [and] the friendships. There's a lot of intangibles that happen with podcasting like Troy Dean. I consider him a dear friend. He's out visiting in San Francisco. All of that was because of the podcast. I've connected with just some amazing individuals... Where else do you get to say, ‘Here's my platform. I have an audience. Let me share your message.’ Mind you I do solo shows too and some people [say] ‘How do you talk for an hour?’ I'm like,
‘Clearly I'm chatty.’ [chuckles]
Kim: But all that is, is I just needed to show up as myself and I thought I'm going to share the journey, [and] own the fact that I'm not a coder and a programmer but I still can find my own space within WordPress. It just resonated with people. I got an email yesterday from someone that says, ‘This is my first time leaving a comment but I'm enjoying your journey and just thanks for being you],’ kind of thing. It's like ‘Oh thank you. I needed that today.’ People resonate. There's that connection piece. I don't think you can get [something] better than a podcast. Videos clearly don’t go anywhere. It's awesome but I can't watch a video and drive my car. You know what I mean.
Jürgen: That's right yeah. I used to like driving but I've since decided it's a waste of time.
Jürgen: But I love to now sit in the car if I've got a long drive. [It’s] beautiful. I just program a podcast playlist anywhere I go and often I get to my destination and I'm a bit disappointed because I'm right in the middle of one of the podcasts.
Kim: Oh yeah absolutely. I'll never forget the last time I was commuting and I had an hour commute each way. I listened to a ten CD The Da Vinci Code on a bridge and I was so irritated every time I got to work. I was like, ‘I don’t want to get out of the car.’ To me, I'll go for a walk and I've got a podcast or an audiobook or something. I go [and] get any services I do. I'm like, ‘Just nudge me if you need me. I'm going to be listening to something.’
So there's this, there's this intimacy and when I do a solo show, I always tell people [to] kind of baby step [their] way into what you choose to share because there's a difference between personal and private. You have to find what's right for you. I always use the example of Dr. Brené Brown whose TED talk went ridiculously viral super fast. Fast forward, I don't know how many years ago her first TED talk was, but she's got a column and has been on Oprah. She's got best selling books. She says brand because she's a shame researcher. She talks about vulnerability. I think people are looking for that connection again because we kind of become disconnected and this is all the stuff that I wouldn’t have talked about before. But then you look, you go backwards and look at direct response marketers who when they talk about copy and persuasion and what connects with people. It is all this stuff so there's sort of this whole psychological bent that we feel is fluffy or esoteric or not relevant. But if you do it in a way that works for you, your audience is like your tribe I mean they're not just people who listen. They're your ideal customers.
Jürgen:That's right. That's exactly right. I remember listening to one of your solo podcasts. Must be about 12 months ago or so. You were going through some difficult times in the business at that time and you pretty well lighted all out - total transparency shared. That's quite courageous.
Jürgen: I related to it you know because some of the challenges that you were coming up against I was experiencing those as well. It's kind of I'm going to look forward to the next podcast when hopefully you're going to talk to me a little bit more about how you're going on this journey and I might learn something more from that.
Kim: Thank you. I totally appreciate that Jürgen.It was funny because when I was in this mastermind and I was around people who have just no problem [financially], 6 figure months all the time and I was like, ‘What am I doing wrong?’
A lot of these people were high ticket services. They were spending a ton of money on ads. There’s that but I remember a light bulb going off when they finally shared that they had done this big promo webinar for their mentor. Nobody bought. Nobody responded. It totally fell flat on their face or when they were getting snarky internet trolls leaving comments on their ads and stuff. I thought there's value. ‘I don't think less of you guys because something failed. I know that you're doing well.’ It makes me feel less like I'm doing something wrong. And it's simply part of the process. Hopefully that's what my sharing does.
Jürgen:Yeah I was going to say I've just started interspersing some solo podcasts with my interview series because I've decided that’s going to make it a little bit easier for me to keep it going on a weekly basis.
My solo ones are fifteen minutes at the moment, sort of struggling to talk a little bit longer than that.
Kim: Well you know, what I do too with that is I write the post out first.
Kim: And so you know I launched another podcast with my friend Jon Perez and originally, we went through this whole branding thing. It was Freedom Papers Podcast and it totally made sense to us at the time. We've gotten great downloads [and] great responses but then we went, ‘This isn't super clear.’ We actually had merchandise that says, ‘F The Hustle’ because I'm so tired of that word and I think that there's a balance when you work from an inspired place. Just trust yourself. Life is not to be hustled through. I'm not going to skip dinner with my family to hustle through this. The author James Altucher calls it hustle porn which I think is funny.
Jürgen: [laugh] Okay. I haven't actually been actually worked out what that word means yet but I keep seeing it everywhere and I think, ’What is this? What are you on about?
Kim: Yeah well it's this whole [thing] like ‘Work harder. Do the F*ing work” and I'm like ’Stop yelling at me! I'm working!” As I've gotten older, I know what I want my life to feel
like and how I want to move to the world. It's funny because that message
is resonating. So what we did is we - I do want to get back. I had a point but.- We had T. shirts and mugs and stuff and then we actually spelled- the word is- ‘Hashtag the F signing K.’ I told Jon I'm going to go with the hashtag ‘F the Hustle’ because I'm never going to walk around wearing that.The point is we shared the mugs on Instagram. People were like, ‘Oh my God! Where do I get that? I want that! I want that!’
Kim: Because you're already working. Building a business is work. You don't need to be told to hustle harder. Gary Vaynerchuk is an anomaly. He is a rare breed. He thrives on that. Not everybody wants that lifestyle and [that] doesn't mean you're wrong for not wanting that crazy hustle. You know what I mean.
Jürgen:Yeah and Gary Vaynerchuk is Gary Vaynerchuk. Somebody else doesn't need to try to be Gary Vaynerchuk because that’s not going to work.
Kim: Yeah exactly. I don't know why I brought that whole story up about the podcast. What did you ask me before then?
Jürgen: I was just talking about the solo podcast.
Kim: What I do is, I write the post out first and what I found helps a lot because when you said that one show that you listen to, I was kind of raw about stuff, I was like “God I
hope I did do an update.’ Because somebody said to me when I had interviewed Jason Hornung which is the Facebook ad agency I hired, they said ‘Did you ever do a follow up episode about how you do with your ads?’
I was like ‘No and I should. You're right!’
So what Jon and I do now is we do a quick update. For the solo shows, you can take a few minutes to you know anything you talked about just because that was our goal with that show. It was very specifically to say ‘We ran a giveaway.’ And it didn't do what we thought but we did this and this is what worked and this is what didn't work. He's doing these daily emails too and talking about how well I had my affiliate income for this has almost tripled because of the daily emails and what else I'm doing with that. My bounce rate has probably dropped thirty percent since doing this style of content and stuff. With the solo shows. I have to write out the post as my guide. I write it first but then I always do the little quick, ‘Hey guys! What's going on? Let me give you a quick update.’ I just share some randomness and that works for me.
Jürgen:I will take that advice on board. One of the things I love about these podcasts when I interview people is that it's always like a Masterclass for me.
Kim: [laugh] I feel the same way when I interview. I kind of feel like I'm cheating. I just got an hour of somebody’s wisdom, right?
Jürgen: Yeah [laugh]
Kim: What do I want to know? [laugh]
Jürgen: Exactly. It's good you know I love doing the podcast. I like your take on it too. I love doing them. I will give a big shout out to Troy Dean because he was the one who suggested that I get into this and helped me get started. So I did and to me it was a way to reach out to my International relationships that I built over a long corporate career and that I hadn't really reconnected with and I knew that a lot of people there were in fairly senior positions in a large innovative organization so the whole idea of the
podcast was around innovation - innovation in marketing of course which is our point of difference at Innovabiz, but then what else is going on in innovation and it's amazing.
Then people connected me with other people. I’ve met some pretty inspirational people through that, who I didn't know before. Plus all of the people that I did know of course they're inspirational too and I learned a heap of things about what they're doing and the challenges they're facing and the achievements that they've been able to achieve as a result of the work they’re doing.
Kim:That's awesome. And don't you find that with each conversation. You kind of get this renewed, reinspired [feeling]. I could be having a rough morning and I'm like ‘Well I'm going to interview schedule. Next thing you know I'm done with that interview and I'm like, ‘I'm ready to to go create something phenomenal!’ [laugh]
Jürgen: That's right. Yeah it is. It is inspirational. It's good to talk to people.
Kim:Yeah it's like you're on an island, right? You're not in office but it is. It's that connection piece and that's why I think podcasting is the ideal
medium because you get multiple types of content and it's just a connection and people can hear how you mean something. It's kind of like an email that you can read something and you're going to interpret it. It may not have been meant that way but the audio is different.
Jürgen:That's right. I'd like to cycle back though to how you grew your podcast audience when you first started it. Was it through your list primarily?
Kim: I wish I had a really good answer for you here. I just stuck with it. I was very committed to doing it because I enjoyed it. I mean podcasting has been around a long time but even three and a half years ago it wasn't as popular and this why I like the balance when we started doing podcast services. Because it was like a done for you literally. The client records. We do everything else. We do production. We do the poster..social media and all that stuff. I always told people I really believe in the solo show with the interview like every other because [First], with the solo show, you're establishing yourself as an authority and they're really getting to know you personally and I think that is just priceless.
With the interview, I'm going to share [it] with my audience when it goes live so you're going to get more exposure to my audience. And so you're allowing me to use your platform to share who I am and what I'm about. And if it resonates with people, I might get some subscribers. So again, it's just this massive goodwill of ‘Let me use my platform to share your message.’
That's what I found was really helpful. And for a while, when I had a full time project manager, we were sending out ‘Thank yous. It was like a big cup and a mug. It was like an acrylic cup and it was printed. We had thank you cards and stickers. We sent goodies and thanks for being on the show. It just got to a bit much. I need more of an automated [thing] to do that but then what would happen of course is those people then take pictures, ‘Look I what got from Kim’ but that didn't come for a couple years. But more than anything, it was just sharing it.
I don't know what it was, I got so in my own way about promoting myself and then I was like ‘I'm going to do this daily email.’ I'd call that my almost daily. I just stepped into it but really with the podcast, I think it was just because I just was myself and I use a lot of self-deprecating humor. I know how silly I can be at times. [laugh]
I make up words but it's just being able to show up as myself but I think [with] the growth of the podcast initially, there was a few factors my site had been online for you know five years. There's a decent SEO piece there and I'm not an SEO person at all. I did have a list. I did have an audience. But it was I just reached out. I've never had anyone say no to a podcast interview. Well that's not true. I had one designer has like I'm really not a public person I was like ‘That's okay.’ I did a solo show one night [and] recorded it like at eight o'clock at night and I was amusing myself because I was tired. [I thought], ‘I don't know if I should do this.’ I got a response from somebody who said, ‘That was hysterical. You should do more of those.’ I was like ‘Well there we go!’
Then I started finding that the solo shows were sometimes more popular than than interviews and stuff. So I just stuck with it. There's so many ways to push that today. Like Stu Mclaren - great name in the WordPress space [and] amazing human being! He's getting ready to launch a podcast. I didn't click through the whole final piece of it but he said, ‘The podcast is coming. If you're willing to give an honest review [and] if you listen to, it will give you this.’ like thrive themes has podcasts funnels on the back end of it. I only have so much bandwidth. I would love to be a funnel master and do all these things but really it's just consistency and connection. I don't know in terms of the topics with your audience like what resonates more. Have you seen with the different interviews like what type of content is resonating more with your audience?
Jürgen: I think it depends a lot on the interview.
Jürgen: We have a range of people from different industries and different personalities and so that tends to resonate with different people as well.
Kim: Which is huge and I think the other thing is in terms of this promotion stuff - do you use Coschedule?
Kim: Okay, I got a box of swag from them because I love them so much and I share everything they do. I need to do like a really good post on them but Coschedule, [any] any of those other tools, it's like I have finally gotten so smart about making sure that my content [and] my posts get scheduled frequently and rescheduled and putting it out there. Here’s the funny thing, I use the Monster Insights analytics plugin which they're doing a revamp and I can't wait to see the new dashboard but it's fun to look at where my traffic comes from and so now you know Active Campaign, my email provider is one of my top five traffic sources.
So what does that tell you? And if you've been on my list, you know that I've only been doing this for a few months and so it's fascinating to see that. I got someone that tweeted, ‘I think Kim Doyal would be fun to have a Pint with and I was like ‘I would be’ but so I know that my personality is coming through.
Kim: So it's just, just be you and I know that sounds so trite unless you have some some corporate where you really are being paid by a company to represent their brand. Just show up. Truly I think that was what has worked for me.
Jürgen: That's great advice and I have to say it does really work for you. You do come across as genuine. You come across as somebody as that person said, ‘I thought I could have a beer with you.’
Jürgen: Yeah that's essentially the advice you're giving isn't it? So just be yourself.
Kim: Yeah. People run into that with content all the time. When Troy was in town for that meet up in the city again and Godaddy hosted at their office, there was a couple people I connected with in the Bay Area because I don't go to Wordcamps or Meet Ups and it's not that I don't like WordPress obviously but it's just my time is tight. I'm just selective and I kind of live out in far inland from San Francisco so everything's a long haul in Bay Area traffic.
I was having a couple conversations that night and two women said the exact same thing but I don't what to write about. I don’t know what to share and the easiest content is simply to share your journey. Just talk about what you're doing [and] what's working. I started doing how to use Genesis. How do you work with Studiopress themes? I started doing Genesis for the user, again not programmers and it just resonated with people. I had one person tell me that I needed to learn to use Camtasia. I'm like, Okay, duly noted. I'll get better.’ [laugh]
But I did it anyways and and so it's just that element of just sharing your journey your content and then from there, you'll get some data. So you're going to have to pay for data whether it's through your time or through paid traffic, one of the two, but you need to put some out there.
Jürgen: Yeah great advice. Thanks for that. I’ll take that on board. I’m looking at another opportunity which is pretty exciting and part of that is a consideration to launch another podcast which I think, would be really ideal for this as well. I might be doing it twice as often. I think.
Kim: It's fun though right?
Jürgen: Well it is fun. I really enjoy podcasting, just thinking maybe I need to have a cardboard cutout of somebody that I put behind the microphone when I do a solo one. Because I find it very easy to have a conversation with somebody.
It's really just a telephone conversation and it's being recorded and that becomes a podcast but doing a solo one somehow is just a lot more challenging.
I've been playing a lot with Facebook live recently and I found the same issue there. I can get up in front of an audience in live, I don't have an issue public speaking or can get up deliver a great speech, audience engagement and so on. But getting up in an empty room in front of the phone and do Facebook live….. I start to get all self-conscious and shaky and what not.
Kim: Well I haven't jumped to the Facebook Live yet and it's funny I know I have to step up my video game but this is brutally honest, ‘I don't want to have to do my hair and makeup all the time’ and I know I shouldn't be worried about it but I'm like ‘If I were twenty, twenty five, then that be different but I'm not. I know there's a value but there's also this idea, I don't know if you saw this but where did I see it recently that Facebook is actually going to let you like schedule or announce or do something to actually promote when you're going to be live. So that might help. I did two periscopes. I announced to my list that I was doing a periscope that day like at twelve and I had a hundred people and I'm like ‘Okay. I can't get a hundred people on a webinar so people want this stuff, right?
Jürgen: Yeah I have an audience on there. That's that's not the issue. It's just the feeling that you're in the room on your own speaking to a small gadget!
Kim:There you go. Yeah you should do a cardboard cutout of somebody. Tell Troy, ‘I
Need you to pose for pictures so I can make a cardboard doll of you to talk to! There's somebody who's prolific. He hustles but he doesn't live the hustle.Troy's a great example of somebody who creates and follows through but he lives his life.
Jürgen: Okay well we'll have to get on Twitter and tag Troy on this episode as well.
Jürgen: Well this is being absolutely fabulous Kim.
I think it's time we move on to the Buzz which are the five questions I ask every guest and it’s the innovation round designed to help our audience who are primarily innovators and leaders in their field with tips from your experience and we've already got a lot of tips but now we're going to condense them into something really inspirational. Hopefully you're going to give us something that will inspire people to go and do something awesome!
Kim: I hope so too.
Jürgen: What's the number one thing you think anyone needs to do to be more innovative?
Kim: Master the fundamentals and I know that sounds contrary but I have more ideas than I know what to do with now because I've got this this massive foundation that runs and it keeps the cogs going so to speak but if you get the fundamentals mastered, the innovation is kind of endless.
Jürgen: That's great. It was so you get to the fundamentals which are like the environment and the structure of what you’re doing, right.
Kim: Yeah look at Michael Jordan Basketballer - I always use that example and I'm not a huge sports person but he talks about how many free throws that he practiced throwing and then you look at the phenomenal things he was able to do on the court because he mastered fundamentals.
Jürgen:I think he was the one that said you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don’t take, right?
Kim: Him or I think that may have been Wayne Gretzky not to correct you on your show. [laugh]
Jürgen: Yeah that's right. It was Wayne Gretzky.
What's the best thing you've done to develop new ideas?
Kim: The podcast. It’s the connections. You have these conversations, an idea will spur from it. I was going to say two things, the podcast, but it's also just through the doing. You just have to do it. I didn't really answer probably the podcast is phenomenal. I get ideas from every guest that I talk to but that and just doing it
Jürgen: Great. I love it.
What's your favourite tool or system for improving your productivity and then allowing you to be more innovative?
Kim: Coschedule. I love Coschedule because I'm kind of old school. I’ve got project management for web work and stuff but there's only so many web apps and stuff that I want to log into.
Jürgen: Okay, that's good. And like all the things that Kim mentions we'll have links to those in the show notes, so that people can investigate them further.
What's the best way to keep a project or a client on track?
Kim: Probably e-mail. It’s funny a lot of people use project management and stuff but I use Mixmax. You can go in and schedule and you can have templates and the other thing is, depending on the person on the project but I don't do a lot of billing anymore…
if they're paying at a certain point, they’re going to be like, “Wow. we’ve paid for this. We've got to get this done.’ So it's also part of why I kind of want to get out of client services. I mean I've got awesome clients right now. They're all awesome to work with but at the end of the day, I let the project manager go. I mean I have had her and she was what kept stuff going. I'm probably the interruption that causes things to slow down more than a client
Jürgen: I think you did a blog post or a podcast episode on that once too, probably a year or so ago.
Jürgen: I love Mixmax for e-mail because it does let you track. You can check if you need to see when people have opened it. It allows you to set follow-up dates really easily. It allows you to schedule emails, which is great because if I think of something at 11 o’clock at night then write it in an email to a client, last thing I want to do is hit the send button then so schedule it to go out at 9 in the next morning and follow ups is great, so I’ve got things that end up telling me there’s has been a response to this one.
Kim: Yeah I love it. I was just like as soon as I saw that. Oh they've read this like four times instead of like ‘Did you get my e-mail?’
Jürgen:Yeah that's right. All right so
What's the number one thing anyone can do to differentiate themselves?
Kim: Well what’s the Dr Seuss quote? “Be you. No one is youer than you.” That is the easiest way. If you are yourself, nobody is going to be able to compete with you. Not to get esoteric but there's some spirituality stuff that I follow. One of the things they said was if you're in alignment with who you are and what you're about, there is no competition, when you're in alignment with your own truth and your messaging and whatever your businesses is. If you're doing it authentically as you, there's no competition and so just be you.
Jürgen: What's the future then for you and for the WP Chick, the podcast and you mentioned - the F the Hustle podcast as well?
Kim: Yeah. So the WordPress Chick, I’m actually about to update the site. I've got a new theme I've been working on that's clearer with the messaging. It's WordPress and marketing and I'm kind of going backwards in terms of with the traffic. It's kind of funny to me that I don't have a how to setup and install WordPress on the WordPress Chick. But I'm working with GoDaddy. I don't know if you've seen their new onboarding with Beaver Builder Light and they're getting very involved in the community and they've got new leadership and WordPress and stuff so it's kind of setting up. So with the WordPress Chick, I'm keeping it simple. I'm going to start doing some coaching again - just some products and the coaching through that. It's real simple. I have a product that I've done. It's not out just yet but how to build your Thrive opt-in funnel start to finish… I’m working through Troy's whole Rockstar Empires and I'd like to do a podcast course because I took a couple podcast courses and so much of it focuses on the technology and I'm like ‘It's about the content. It's about your connection to your audience’ and so the division that my company did was influenced podcasting….. So it's hustlefree.net is the site and the podcast is the Hustlefree podcast, the merchandise is all about the hustle. When we launched this it was the fastest I have ever implemented because the idea had a hold of us. We had the idea on July 18th. We launched it on August 8th. Five episodes the first week and then we cranked it and it has been flowing so I love the physical newsletter that I get from Ben Settle. I love his model. So we're going to be publishing a recurring revenue model around that. But we launched it. Nobody bought.[laugh]
Here's a great point is we know better.I think we were both banking on our individual audiences as opposed to building a new audience [and] building up the trust in the value. We got the minimum viable audience and so we're focused on that for the next couple months. Now we're going to keep podcasting. We're going to continue building an audience, do a Facebook group and start doing some challenges whether it's a daily e-mail or if the goal is to create more content or to finally get that thing up. Whatever it is, we want a community of people who understand you need to do the work but you don't need to ruin your life in the process or give everything else up. I'm going to keep it simple but I'm excited about both. They compliment each other.
Jürgen: Finally what's the number one piece of advice you’d give to anybody who wants to be a leader in innovation and in their field?
Kim: Well I feel very redundant, but you have to show up. It's just show up and I don't mean that [you need to] be where you're supposed to be. People get very caught up in planning and strategies and this and it's like no, you've got to publish it. You've got to create it. You need to put your thing out into the world. At some point you just show up and you do it.
I wrote a post and it was a while ago but it was why fake it till you make it is ass backwards because the thing is you're not doing anybody any good if you're faking it. It's a lot better to share like ‘This sucked or this didn't work’ or whatever it is. It's a lot more valuable. So that's like what Jon and I do it on the podcast. It’s like, ‘Let's tell people the give away didn't do what we thought it was going to do’ or ‘We launched this and nobody bought’ so we're stepping back. We both know better. We just got caught up in the moment. That is so much more valuable to somebody listening to while they they did this, this and this but they totally forgot a big piece.
You have to be willing to show up and fail forward.
Jürgen: Yeah that's great. I love that. ..
Well thank you Kim. This has been really great. It has been a great privilege to have you here and I have to admit for the audience that I was totally off script. I think we didn't touch, we only touched on one or two of the scripted questions, we went totally off script but I think it's been a huge hugely valuable interview.
Where can people reach out and say ‘Thank you’ Kim?
Kim: First of all thank you for having me. The WordPress Chick is thewpchick.com. All my social profiles are there. I think most of my social media with the exception of my Facebook page is my name, Kim Doyal. But you can connect with me through the WordPress Chick. It’s probably the best spot.
Jürgen: Who would you like me to interview on a future InnovaBuzz podcast and why?
Kim: That’s a fun one! I would have to say Carrie Dils. She was one of my first 10 interviews, a programmer and she is amazing, wicked, smart and a pleasure to consider a friend.
Jürgen: Great, perhaps you can introduce us - so Carrie, look out for an invitation from us to the InnovaBuzz podcast, courtesy of Kim Doyal.
Kim: My pleasure, I would love to do that. Thank you again for having me Jürgen.
Jürgen: Thanks for sharing your time and insights with us so generously today. I have a whole page of notes to follow up on and it’s set me up for the whole day! All the best for the future of the WP Chick and let’s keep in touch.
Kim: Thanks Jürgen. Bye now.
Jürgen: Thanks, Bye.
I hope you enjoyed meeting Kim as much as I enjoyed this interview and learning about how Kim produces all that content and her podcasts.
All the show notes for this episode will be at innovabiz.com.au/kimdoyal, that is K-I-M-D-O-Y-A-L, all lowercase, all one word, innovabiz.com.au/kimdoyal, for all of the links and everything we spoke about in this episode .
Kim suggested I interview Carrie Dils who is also well known in the WordPress world and hosts Officehours.fm, on a future InnovaBuzz podcast. So, Carrie keep an eye on your inbox, for an invitation from me to the InnovaBuzz podcast, courtesy of Kim Doyal.
Thank you for listening. Pop over to iTunes or Stitcher or Pocket Casts and subscribe so you’ll never miss a future episode. While you’re there, you might leave us a review, because reviews help us get found and your feedback helps us improve. If there is anything you’d like us to cover, or questions you want answered on a future InnovaBuzz podcasts, please send them to us.
Until next time, I’m Jürgen Strauss from Innovabiz.
Remember, if you don’t innovate, you stagnate, so think big, be adventurous and keep innovating!
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